People complain about hip-hop and rap, saying how sad its state is right now. Well, I can name off a plethora of pretty great hip-hop records to come out over the past few years; however, I can't say the same about R&B. I struggle to think of "great" R&B albums to come out within the last few years. I probably couldn't list 10.

Am I alone here?

They say hip-hop is down because it's not what it used to be before and sales are down and I don't know who said it but like album sales for hip hop have gone down like 30% more than any other genre, You got me on the R&B.

R&B Groups have become extinct.

I think that is part of the problem with R&B.

Really knowing how to sing and being a great vocalist has become extinct in exchange for dancing and looking nice to the eye. Thats the problem nowadays.

pre early 90s, basically all R&B singers were great singers.

The men have greatly fallen off as well. Back in the day we had Marvin, Luther, Al, Donnie, Teddy, Babyface, Isley Brothers, Boys 2 Men, New Edition and a host of others. Nowadays who's around? R Kelly? Where has Maxwell disappeared too?? Usher really not much of a great vocalist imo... Quality has fallen off as in singing. Good talent nowadays but alot of them are not great singers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: tae2004,

I agree with tae2004,

"Singers" today aren't just recognized because of their voice (If that happened like more than half of the people in the top 40 wouldn't even be there) they have to have the Image, and some do other things too (Dance, Act, Put on a good show and be an influence to other people). The game now is not just about the voice that you have but how marketable you are.

Some of my favorite artists aren't as marketable to popular coulture (Josh Groban, Andrea Bocelli) in comparison to the ones that some (Beyonce, Maroon 5). R&B is one of the genres that you really needed a voice to stay in the game.For example, Whitney Houston was huge in the 90's but after the "standards" changed on what you needed to be sucessful, she didn't necesairly meet them.

I think the change had to do with the raise of pop groups and princesses. There's nothing bad about it but it overtook what used to be needed to be sucessful. I know im taking this a bit of topic but I havle alot of thoughts on my mind.

Take Christina Aguilera, she first started with the pop image and could sing but IMO her label was more worried about her image. She also has the voice but it's overshadowed by todays standards. She has the potential to dance and put on a great show, snd she does it, but there are always little variables that over look her. Beyonce is my favorite artist because she has a great balance of being able to sing and could of been sucessful in the R&B golden age, but she can keep up with todays standards, she knows how to play the game better than most artists these days.

You also have to give credit to Madonna and other pop artists that aren't as talented vocally (She's just the first to come to mind) for setting up the change of standards. I'm not saying it a bad thing that they were changed just that there's always change.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: A_Mb88,

I have to respectfully disagree with Fighting4Justice's assertion about R&B.

The reason that hip-hop (rightfully) takes a bad rap these days is because songs like "Lollipop" make it to #1, which makes it very hard to take the genre seriously anymore. There's very little quality hitting the charts on the rap front; meanwhile, R&B has stars like Alicia Keys topping the charts at every angle with great material.

Finding great R&B is just like finding any other great style of music: you have to look for it. Within the past year alone I've discovered some truly amazing R&B albums. Does anyone remember a few months ago when I listed my top 10 best R&B albums of 2007 and Keyshia Cole's album topped the list? That was just one of the few truly amazing R&B albums that year. I wish I had given Ledisi's Lost & Found more time before I made that list because now, in hindsight, she'd easily push Keyshia to the runner-up position.

Another recent gem is Raheem DeVaughn's Love Behind The Melody. It's an instant classic, IMO. And of course, there's the always brilliant and reliable Alicia Keys; her As I Am is a beautiful record overall.

Those are just a few examples that prompt me to disagree with the assertion that "great" R&B isn't being made, because it is. Raheem DeVaughn, Ledisi, Alicia Keys, and Keyshia Cole have all helped to prove that recently -- each raking in Grammy nods for their works.

Also, I'm not hesitant to say that there's a lot more great R&B being made than there is great hip-hop.

quote:

Originally posted by Guru:
R&B Groups have become extinct.

I think that is part of the problem with R&B.

I completely agree. Destiny's Child was the last truly great R&B group, and while there's one group in particular that I think has the potential to dominate R&B (Day26), I doubt it'll happen because of the personnel (Bad Boy) that handles the group.

One of the main reasons why the '90s era is my favorite time of music is because of the groups that were around back then. Boyz II Men. En Vogue. TLC. New Edition. Jodeci. SWV. 702. Blackstreet. Tony! Toni! Tone! Destiny's Child. K-Ci & JoJo. Jagged Edge. Dru Hill. 112. I could go on and on and on and on, even to less popular groups and duos like Brownstone and Changing Faces. There were some truly OUTSTANDING R&B acts during the '90s and you simply don't see that anymore. The ones that do still exist from that time don't even make good music anymore (Jagged Edge, 112) and some of these wannabe groups just don't cut it for me (Danity Kane, Pretty Ricky) because they are minimally talented.

quote:

Originally posted by tae2004:
Really knowing how to sing and being a great vocalist has become extinct in exchange for dancing and looking nice to the eye. Thats the problem nowadays.

I agree here as well.

You can find plenty of great female singers, but where are the males? Though he's vastly underrated, I'd easily call Musiq Soulchild the most talented male vocalist to emerge in R&B this decade. But that's not enough. Too many male R&B artists are FAR overrated as singers these days (mainly Ne-Yo, and that's only because he's a songwriter, and I find him to be mediocre in that department as well). R. Kelly has lost all reliability as a great music maker. Though he still makes good music, Brian McKnight simply isn't as interesting as he once was. Sadly, we've lost Luther. Babyface and Stevie Wonder record sporadically these days. Did D'Angelo and Maxwell fall off the face of the earth? What in the heck happened to Teddy Riley? Montell Jordan was so talented but he couldn't sustain his popularity too long after "This Is How We Do It." Where's Tony Rich? So many of R&B's great vocalists are missing. Considering how young he is, how has Tevin Campbell managed to slip off? I mean, he's younger than Usher for crying out loud!

We have some pretty talented guys around these days, but the problem is that the music simply isn't as exciting. And some of you wonder why Usher is my favorite. He's interesting.

Which is why I hold both Beyonce and Usher in such high regard. They are my favorite male and female vocalists of all time. Why? Because they are the embodiment of the FULL package. They're great singers. They're great entertainers. They make music that's always entertaining and exciting. Yes, there are singers that can sing rings around them, but there are just as many that can't, and the ones that can aren't nearly as exciting.

Basically, R&B just isn't as exciting as it once was unless a certain few have music out. However, there's STILL great music being made within the genre. Though not as often as it used to be, it's still being done today.

The Keyshia Cole album is good, but if that's an example of one of the best of the past few years, then that just supports my point.

I do agree with Mr Talented's post about needing to really look for good RnB. I know that its a shame considering that we were once surrounded by it and in just a few short years we are searching for it. Its out there, but it does not get the attention that other acts get for various reasons. Sade's last album was great. Jill Scott is so consistent. Miss Badu is always overlooked even with Mama's Gun, which was eclectic, classic, funky and easy on the ears: all the hallmarks of great RnB.

The younger generation has always had an impact on the music industry (economically speaking), but nothing compares to the buying power of teens and tweens today. Now we see the economic power of urban tweens/teens and the effect on the quality of music. The younger generation likes good singing, but it can take a backseat to sexuality or fun lightweight songs anyday of the week. And when you think of the really talented RnB singers, I think that its hard for most of the tweens/teens to identify with the singers (who are often older) and the sometimes heavy subject matter. As a kid Barry White or Luther may be the better singer, but can they really connect or identify with them the way they do with younger, hipper singers (like Mario, Chris Brown, Neyo). As a result, great singers or RnB songs begin to die out (economically speaking) while hipper less talented acts seem to proliferate.

And it cannot be said enough times the impact that MTV/BET has had on the market. The Ciara's of today would have never made it too far in the 70's because the voice isn't strong enough on its own to keep your attention.

Fashion and sounds seem to go in cycles. Im waiting on pins and needles for the return of more classic RnB acts and albums.

R&B's fusion with hip-hop/rap is what killed it.

I'm sorry Destiny's Child IS NOT R&B!!! They are a shinning example of the fusion of the two genres.

I agree with F4J; if Keshia Cole is what is gonna save R&B then the genre is in a world of trouble.

Luther Vandross is the only true R&B artist to be successful in a really long time. We need to look to the likes of Will Downing and Kelly Price to find artists that have a sound that resembles true rhythm and blues.

quote:

Originally posted by FishBiscuit:
R&B's fusion with hip-hop/rap is what killed it.

I'm sorry Destiny's Child IS NOT R&B!!! They are a shinning example of the fusion of the two genres.

I agree with F4J; if Keshia Cole is what is gonna save R&B then the genre is in a world of trouble.

Luther Vandross is the only true R&B artist to be successful in a really long time. We need to look to the likes of Will Downing and Kelly Price to find artists that have a sound that resembles true rhythm and blues.

I completely and totally disagree.

If you think that the fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed the genre of soul music, then you automatically dismiss and discredit the impact of Teddy Riley, Babyface, and Mary J. Blige. They (particularly Riley) were the ones who pioneered the ENTIRE "New Jack Swing" era, which is that sound that allegedly "killed" R&B music; the same sound that we hear coming from most of today's top recording artists. By making such a bold statement, you immediately erase the impact of acts like SWV and Guy -- both of which were Teddy Riley creations. You dismiss two Jackson family classics -- Control and Dangerous -- because both revolved around that sound and were crafted by producers that literally helped to form and define the fusion of hip-hop and soul. And what about New Edition's catalog? It may very well have been nonexistent. Or what about Boyz II Men? "Motownphilly" is a classic example of what so-called "killed" R&B music. Stars like Karyn White and Pebbles ruled the charts with the sound. Hell, you literally strip Mary of her title if this really "killed" R&B music.

And really, no matter what way you try to spin it, Destiny's Child is R&B. Period. If they're not R&B, then what are they? They certainly aren't rap, country, rock, or gospel. You can't accurately describe them as pop based on their catalog because all of their albums (with exception to much of Survivor) is R&B.

Also, I'm not sure if you knew, but Kelly Price no longer sings R&B; she sings gospel now. I'll give you Will Downing though. I've been a fan of his for awhile now.

And I also disagree with you that Luther Vandross is the only "true" R&B artist to be successful in a long time. Once again, by parading around such statements, you discredit and disrespect the artistry and achievements of a lot of artists including, but not limited to: Boyz II Men, Toni Braxton, Brian McKnight, Mary J. Blige, Babyface, Alicia Keys, D'Angelo, Maxwell, Jill Scott, Erykah Badu, R. Kelly, and several others.

I also see that you both kinda missed my point about Keyshia Cole. My whole point for bringing her up was to show that an unknown singer (Ledisi) produced a far better work than a more popular singer (Keyshia Cole) -- showing that sometimes you have to look for great music. It's not going to always fall into your lap. Also try newer folks like Ryan Shaw, Alice Smith, and Elisabeth Withers. They released some really outstanding soul albums. The music is out there, but people simply aren't willing to look for it. We should all know better by now than to think good music of any genre will start blaring from the speakers of top 40 radio stations. It just doesn't happen.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,

quote:

Originally posted by MrTalented:
If you think that the fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed the genre of soul music, then you automatically dismiss and discredit the impact of Teddy Riley, Babyface, and Mary J. Blige. They (particularly Riley) were the ones who pioneered the ENTIRE "New Jack Swing" era,

Don't forget LA Reid!


I agree with others. Being able to sing, or being able to write are not what determines success anymore. You have to be good to look at. But I also agree that if you look for it, you can still find quality. You just won't find it on mainstream radio or the charts.

Thanks T White, because I certainly forgot about Antonio "L.A." Reid. That was definitely a careless oversight on my part.

You summed up my entire thoughts on this topic. I don't think there's anything "up" with R&B. It's just like any other genre of music -- there's gonna be the good and the bad. Unfortunately, the bad always finds its way to your ears, meaning you have to search for the good sometimes. In the '60s and '70s, you didn't have to search for it; it was just popular. It was there. These days quality doesn't dominate radio anymore. It's unfortunate and it's a shame, but there is good R&B out there that's being made by new artists.

I'd suggest some Raheem DeVaughn, Chrisette Michele, Dwele, Donnie, Leela James, Teedra Moses, Ledisi, Ryan Shaw, Kevin Michael, Emily King, Alice Smith, Van Hunt, Elisabeth Withers, Goapele, and Amel Larrieux, amongst others. All hit it big post-2000 and have released some truly brilliant material.

quote:

Originally posted by MrTalented:
I also see that you both kinda missed my point about Keyshia Cole.

We understand your point but we just pointed out the fact you thought Keyshia Cole had one of the best, "truly amazing" R&B albums of the year, regardless of if you said Ledisi had the better album or had to look for music:

quote:

Originally posted by MrTalented:
Does anyone remember a few months ago when I listed my top 10 best R&B albums of 2007 and Keyshia Cole's album topped the list? That was just one of the few truly amazing R&B albums that year.

Our points are based on that.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: Fighting4Justice,

I'm not denying that I said that because I clearly posted it. My point about the Keyshia Cole/Ledisi albums is that the great music isn't always going to come from the bigger artist. Maybe I could've done a better job at making that clear, but that was the entire point of the scenario.

Bottom line: the best R&B music isn't always screaming from your car radio. Keyshia Cole and Ledisi, as I said, are proof of that. Lost & Found is leaps and bounds a better album than Just Like You. Both are amazing in their own rights, but you have one that's good (Just Like You) and one that's great -- classic even (Lost & Found).

Dude we get your point.

We just made another point out of it. That's all.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the best R&B music right now is non-mainstream.

I think R&B is in an alright state of music actually. It could always improve, but for the most part, I think is strong.

Interesting rebuttal but I see no mention of R&B groups or acts before the early '80's. That's a very narrow view of the genre.

You bring up New Edition, Janet Jackson, Karyn White and SWV. All of them are hybrids of R&B and pop or hip hop. Destiny's Child and their first big hit No, No, No, pt. 2 was a collaboration between them and an artist that was trying to bring pure hip-hop into the mainstream.

To say that Pebbles was a pure R&B artist discounts the works of acts like Randee Crawford, Minnie Riperton, and Phyllis Hyman. Three true R&B ladies whose sounds were not touched by pop sensibilities unlike the sound of Ms. Reid.

New Edition, BlackStreet, and BBD are examples of true R&B when the likes of The Isley Brothers, The O'Jays, and The Tempatations are not. Sorry, the three latter acts are responsible for the three former acts and the former groups diluted the sound of the latter in an attempt to cross-over to the pop charts.

Some of the artist you mentioned are closer to what R&B really is like Jill Scott, D'Angelo, and Babyface, but those artist were obviously influenced by R&B pioneers not the "New Jack Swing" movement you touched on. Listen to "Jilltro." It states her inspriation comes from listening to R&B. While I'd bet she was bumpin' "SWV" she was inspried by the likes of Marvin Gaye, Tami Terrell and Vesta Williams.

I won't even get into the issue of sampling, which has further diluted the true R&B sound which became rampant in the "New Jack Swing" era. An era that is in high regard in your book. Mary J. Blige's second album is close to be one big sample. You have to throw alot of her early work because in reality it belongs to someone else.

You are right the best R&B is not coming from your car radio. It's in the vinyl collections of your parents, their siblings, and their friends.

That is of course if your parents were boomers.

This message has been edited. Last edited by: FishBiscuit,

Damn this discussion got testy so quickly.
But both camps make interesting points. (FishBiscuit, I loved the last statements. Pure genius. LOL)

Its hard to say what RnB "is" because the genre is and has always been evolving since its inception. What is "real" or "true" RnB? Is it the Doo-oop sound that dominated the scene in the 60's, the social conscience movement in the late 60's and seventies, the power ballards and smooth groves of the eighties or the New Jack Swing of the 90's? I think its fair to say that they are all sub genres of the larger umbrella. Its hard to dismiss one act or sub genre since the definition has always had blurry lines. The same can be said of Pop music or any genre.

I am not a huge fan of the popular RnB artists, but it is hard to say that their sub genre does not have its place (although I pray that it is a short stay). Is it better or worse? Thats hard to say. Case in point, my mother HATES many of the singers in the eighties/nineties and considers the seventies the golden age of RnB. Yet I would counter that there are plenty of great RnB acts of the late eighties and early nineties. Who is right? Both of us and neither of us at the same time. Thats the beauty of music.

By the way, Kelly Price is releasing a new R&B cd this year. She is still doing both genres.

But yea, I prefer old school over the new stuff anyday!!!

This year, the only great R&B album I've come across is Erykah Badu's Nu Amerykah.

Some good ones I enjoy (more mainstream) include Raheem's Love Behind The Melody, The-Dream's LoveHate, and Estelle's Shine. More contemporary stuff, but that's just my taste with what I'm given nowadays. There are some others, but I'd be hardpressed to call them "R&B" albums.

I particularly miss the days of like Maxwell or D'Angelo. And I agree, I loved the R&B groups/duos -- R&B sounds so gorgeous when a set of vocalists harmonize. Guru is right, they don't even exist anymore.