Originally posted by FishBiscuit: R&B's fusion with hip-hop/rap is what killed it.
I'm sorry Destiny's Child IS NOT R&B!!! They are a shinning example of the fusion of the two genres.
I agree with F4J; if Keshia Cole is what is gonna save R&B then the genre is in a world of trouble.
Luther Vandross is the only true R&B artist to be successful in a really long time. We need to look to the likes of Will Downing and Kelly Price to find artists that have a sound that resembles true rhythm and blues.
I completely and totally disagree.
If you think that the fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed the genre of soul music, then you automatically dismiss and discredit the impact of Teddy Riley, Babyface, and Mary J. Blige. They (particularly Riley) were the ones who pioneered the ENTIRE "New Jack Swing" era, which is that sound that allegedly "killed" R&B music; the same sound that we hear coming from most of today's top recording artists. By making such a bold statement, you immediately erase the impact of acts like SWV and Guy -- both of which were Teddy Riley creations. You dismiss two Jackson family classics -- Control and Dangerous -- because both revolved around that sound and were crafted by producers that literally helped to form and define the fusion of hip-hop and soul. And what about New Edition's catalog? It may very well have been nonexistent. Or what about Boyz II Men? "Motownphilly" is a classic example of what so-called "killed" R&B music. Stars like Karyn White and Pebbles ruled the charts with the sound. Hell, you literally strip Mary of her title if this really "killed" R&B music.
I'd say he also dismisses other albums like Ooooooohhh.... On the TLC Tip and particularly, the landmark CrazySexyCool.
TLC was also very popular during the New Jack Swing/Hip-Hop era - helping bridge the gap between the two genres.
Anyways, I'm still not seeing how R&B's fusion with Hip-Hop/Rap killed the R&B Genre...particularly when you have "pure" r&b artists like Aretha Franklin, Chaka Khan, and The Isley Brothers themselves all borrowing from the contemporary R&B sound. Perhaps they disagree with that assertion? If anything, Hip-Hop's incorporation with R&B/Soul music made the R&B genre more potent; more cosmic. How exactly is that bad?
Originally posted by Be: I'd say he also dismisses other albums like Ooooooohhh.... On the TLC Tip and particularly, the landmark CrazySexyCool.
TLC was also very popular during the New Jack Swing/Hip-Hop era - helping bridge the gap between the two genres.
Anyways, I'm still not seeing how R&B's fusion with Hip-Hop/Rap killed the R&B Genre...particularly when you have "pure" r&b artists like Aretha Franklin, Chaka Khan, and The Isley Brothers themselves all borrowing from the contemporary R&B sound. Perhaps they disagree with that assertion? If anything, Hip-Hop's incorporation with R&B/Soul music made the R&B genre more potent; more cosmic. How exactly is that bad?
I completely agree. Without this change (which I think has been very good because it's updated the R&B sound a lot), artists like Mary J. Blige, TLC, SWV, Guy, and Boyz II Men could've never even debuted. Janet Jackson would've never had her career breakthrough if it wasn't for this style, and we all see how she's influenced so many female artists since her time, like Paula Abdul, Jennifer Lopez, Aaliyah, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Ciara.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
Originally posted by FishBiscuit: Interesting rebuttal but I see no mention of R&B groups or acts before the early '80's. That's a very narrow view of the genre.
It's not a narrow view because I wasn't even discussing the golden age of R&B (which we all know is the '60s and '70s). My rebuttal was aimed at your disregard for the New Jack Swing era, which is why I made mention of those artists. New Jack Swing didn't come around until the late '80s, so you should see why I made mention of artists from that era. I wasn't even discussing R&B before that time because I was responding to a post in which you made no mention of that. I was mainly responding to your statement that the "fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed R&B."
quote:
You bring up New Edition, Janet Jackson, Karyn White and SWV. All of them are hybrids of R&B and pop or hip hop. Destiny's Child and their first big hit No, No, No, pt. 2 was a collaboration between them and an artist that was trying to bring pure hip-hop into the mainstream.
To say that Pebbles was a pure R&B artist discounts the works of acts like Randee Crawford, Minnie Riperton, and Phyllis Hyman. Three true R&B ladies whose sounds were not touched by pop sensibilities unlike the sound of Ms. Reid.
New Edition, BlackStreet, and BBD are examples of true R&B when the likes of The Isley Brothers, The O'Jays, and The Tempatations are not. Sorry, the three latter acts are responsible for the three former acts and the former groups diluted the sound of the latter in an attempt to cross-over to the pop charts.
Some of the artist you mentioned are closer to what R&B really is like Jill Scott, D'Angelo, and Babyface, but those artist were obviously influenced by R&B pioneers not the "New Jack Swing" movement you touched on. Listen to "Jilltro." It states her inspriation comes from listening to R&B. While I'd bet she was bumpin' "SWV" she was inspried by the likes of Marvin Gaye, Tami Terrell and Vesta Williams.
I won't even get into the issue of sampling, which has further diluted the true R&B sound which became rampant in the "New Jack Swing" era. An era that is in high regard in your book. Mary J. Blige's second album is close to be one big sample. You have to throw alot of her early work because in reality it belongs to someone else.
You are right the best R&B is not coming from your car radio. It's in the vinyl collections of your parents, their siblings, and their friends.
That is of course if your parents were boomers.
You CLEARLY misread my post.
I never called any of those artists "real" R&B. What I said was that, based on your previous assertion, you virtually stripped away all credibility that ANY of those artists had, which included the ones I listed like Babyface, Mary J. Blige, Karyn White, New Edition, SWV, Teddy Riley, etc.
The discussion isn't even about whether or not groups like the O'Jays or artists like Phyllis Hyman are "real" R&B. They're authentic soul at its finest. Nobody disputed that. I never even brought it up. What I did do was respond to your assertion that the fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed it because I feel that you disrespected and discredited a very exciting time in the histories of BOTH genres when you said that. You took away from A LOT of artists that were able to succeed because of that merger, like TLC, Boyz II Men, and the undisputed Queen of the fusion -- Mary J. Blige.
And what about the Fugees? I forgot to mention them, but you completely ignore their classic The Score when you say something like that. The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as well.
I never took away from the classics and those classic artists, and if you've ever read any of my posts then you know that I hold the days of Motown in high regard. But when you sit here and say that sampling has helped "kill" R&B, I find it biased because you never even mention all the other styles that do it (and I'm aware that we're particularly discussing R&B). There's great hip-hop being made and we all know that rap artists sample more than any other genre of artists. There's a great deal of sampling going on in pop music as well.
I think that if sampling (as you say) has helped to "kill" R&B, then it's also helped to kill the music that we hear these days in general. It isn't just exclusive to R&B.
Originally posted by Fighting4Justice: So what good are Paula Abdul, Jennifer Lopez, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, and Ciara doing for R&B music today?
Paula Abdul, JLo, Britney, and Ciara have like no vocal talent. Are Britney amd Paula even considered R&B artists anyway?
Christina Aguilera's not exactly a force in R&B. She's a good pop artist.
I get your point, but I used them to prove my point about Janet. Because of New Jack Swing, she was able to finally become successful (after 2 consecutive failed attempts) and influence artists outside of the R&B scope. I used them to support my argument about Janet.
quote:
Has hip-hop's infusion into R&B really benefited either hip-hop and R&B separately? I'm not convinced it did.
I can't say whether or not I think either genre has benefited, but I do think that a lot of great groups and solo artists were able to debut, become successful, and make some truly classic albums and songs because of it.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
I completely agree with you there, and I think that those have been some of the very negative aspects of the fusion.
But even though we can recognize that (I think you're 100% correct), there are a few artists that have deflected that theory.
Take Common or Talib Kweli for example. Both are very underrated, but are critically respected because they lean more towards what made hip-hop great. They represent the genre's authenticity.
Then, there's Aaliyah. Most of her music is based on heavy hip-hop beats, but everyone recognizes that she was also a great vocalist. No, she wasn't as soulful as Mary, nor was she a belter like Whitney. But she was still a great singer, who did people like Janet, J. Lo, and Ciara one better because she did what they could just as well as them, but she was a great vocalist in addition to all those other things.
Overall, I think there's been some good and bad. And yes, that's become the problem with BOTH genres today. Unfortunately, the fusion helped make rap more commercial. Now, more and more crap is coming from rap artists. More new R&B artists are more talented as performers and easier on the eyes than they once were, and that's not what R&B is traditionally about, and I still say that it isn't. R&B is about the singing, and less of that is going on, but I also think that the fusion isn't only to blame. Things within the music industry as a whole have changed.
There are a few full packages left in R&B today. A few that have the look, the talent, and the sound. But more R&B artists are half-cooked these days. They don't have the full package and some performers are so overrated that people actually believe they're a complete package when they actually aren't that good at the things they're praised for.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
I never called any of those artists "real" R&B. What I said was that, based on your previous assertion, you virtually stripped away all credibility that ANY of those artists had, which included the ones I listed like Babyface, Mary J. Blige, Karyn White, New Edition, SWV, Teddy Riley, etc.
The discussion isn't even about whether or not groups like the O'Jays or artists like Phyllis Hyman are "real" R&B. They're authentic soul at its finest. Nobody disputed that. I never even brought it up. What I did do was respond to your assertion that the fusion of hip-hop with R&B is what killed it because I feel that you disrespected and discredited a very exciting time in the histories of BOTH genres when you said that. You took away from A LOT of artists that were able to succeed because of that merger, like TLC, Boyz II Men, and the undisputed Queen of the fusion -- Mary J. Blige.
And what about the Fugees? I forgot to mention them, but you completely ignore their classic The Score when you say something like that. The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill as well.
I never took away from the classics and those classic artists, and if you've ever read any of my posts then you know that I hold the days of Motown in high regard. But when you sit here and say that sampling has helped "kill" R&B, I find it biased because you never even mention all the other styles that do it (and I'm aware that we're particularly discussing R&B). There's great hip-hop being made and we all know that rap artists sample more than any other genre of artists. There's a great deal of sampling going on in pop music as well.
I think that if sampling (as you say) has helped to "kill" R&B, then it's also helped to kill the music that we hear these days in general. It isn't just exclusive to R&B.
Why was there a neo-soul/R&B explosion? Because musical fads, like new jack swing, thankfully die out. Jill Scott, Maxwell, D'Angelo, Angie Stone, and others, ushered in era where true R&B was back in the fore-front and PTL for them.
Sorry, some things need to be taken away from Mary J. Blige becasue as I said her early music was not hers. It was a throwback to the golden era of R&B.
The Fugees were a top to bottom hip-hop group. And a good one at that. Just because they had their biggest hit COVERING a R&B classic in no way makes them a band that combined the two genres. They never kidded themselves into believeing they were anything else.
Lauyrn Hill as a solo artists was definatley more of mixture but at the end of the day "The Miseducation of LH" will not be remembered as a great R&B album it will be rememebered as a great hip-hop album. Funny thing, people want to combine the genres of hip-hop and R&B but fail to realize both musical styles have rich histories as seperate entities.
Combining the two sure was exciting and the in thing to do. But where are all of those new jack swing bands? Luckily Mary J. Blige rememebred she could sing and poured her SOUL into her music. As for the rest they are in the same place hair bands and grunge group are. Waiting for the fad wave to swell up again.
You are right pop music does sample. One of the biggest pop/hip-hop groups of the decade sampled an old Stevie Nicks song and turned it into one of their biggest hits.
Posts: 5019 | Location: Illinois | Registered: June 30, 2006
I think you might really need to visit (or revisit) Destiny's Child's catalog, because they're NOT pop and they certainly can't be classified as hip-hop.
You're right that many of those artists and groups aren't around anymore, but their influence on R&B as a whole was dynamic, and what I'm saying is that you belittle the talents and achievements of a lot of artists because you've chosen to ignore it and write it off as a "fad."
R. Kelly helped take this style to the mainstream, and he's still charting hits. Same goes for Blige. And though they aren't around anymore, Boyz II Men and TLC became two of the most successful groups of all time because of New Jack Swing.
Yes, I sound like a broken record for repeating myself. But you don't seem to see how you're basically ignoring the impacts of certain artists. If it wasn't for New Jack Swing, Janet Jackson would've never become the icon that she is now. It's really surprising to me that you don't seem to see what I'm saying, as you haven't even responded to what I've said about some of the artists I've mentioned that succeeded BECAUSE of New Jack Swing, like Janet. Think about it: had she not hooked up with Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis (two of New Jack Swing's premiere producers), the world never would've heard such a classic political offering like Rhythm Nation 1814, and that's just one of the several classic albums that came out of the New Jack Swing movement.
You also (noticeably) continue to ignore the impact of the movement by crediting the neo-soul movement of the mid-'90s as a replacement for the fading New Jack Swing movement. Newsflash??? The movement STILL exists.
And let's be real here: had this movement not happened, then the latter half of Mariah Carey's '90s catalog would've never been possible. She borrowed heavily from the movement and it really helped gain her a stronger R&B following than she had before Daydream. So let's not try and discredit something that one of the most beloved artists of our time even experienced success from.
Also, just a little food for thought, where are Maxwell, D'Angelo, Tony Rich, and Macy Gray these days? I LOVE neo-soul, and those were 4 of the artists who helped drive that movement. Gray drove it right through the mainstream and won a Grammy for it. But where are they? That movement isn't as strong as it once was either. Erykah Badu and Jill Scott are the remaining faces of neo-soul, but does that also mean that neo-soul was a fad? Because I certainly don't think that qualifies it as one, and I don't think that New Jack Swing can be called one either, especially when so many pop artists have experienced success from it as well.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
DC is pop my friend. "Suvivor" is one good pop CD with noticable hints of hip hop. You can thank Rodney Jerkins for that. Continue to shake Dark Child's hand for "Lose My Breath." another hip-hop/pop tune. It's not R&B!!!
You bring up a good point about Mariah Carey. Once she dabbled in the fads of the day the quality of her music dropped. Fads get you on the charts they don't give you longevity. Once she returned to her roots musically her stock soared again.
Look at poor Janet. Floundering and searching for a musical identity while she inches closer and closer to being irrelvant. BTW to label her as just "New Jack Swings sells her so short it's laughable. I guess dance anthems meant nothing. What about her forary into rock. Or her jump on the sex-pop trend. Oh wait that is a by-product of NJS but its not a good one.
I will continue to call New Jack Swing a fad becasue thats what it was. Any artists that touched it is either gone away, struggling with musical relevancy, or stuck in a niche sub-genre. Or they smartly dropped it and returned to the success they once had. That's a great legacy to leave!!!!
As far as neo-soul/R&B the movement has not gone. There are plenty of artists that are continuing it. Thankfully their main goal is not just to chart hits.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: FishBiscuit,
Posts: 5019 | Location: Illinois | Registered: June 30, 2006
Again, you've clearly misread my posts and carved from it what you want. I never labeled Janet as just "New Jack Swing"; what I said was that it was this style that initially made her a success. Without it, she wouldn't have been able to make a name for herself in dance, rock, or any other genres because she wouldn't have had the popularity to do so.
And I'm curious to know, are saying that since Daydream the quality of Mariah's music has declined? Because that's when she first began "dabbling" in the style (that famed "Fantasy" remix with ODB), and just in case you haven't noticed, she hasn't strayed away from utilizing that style since 1995. So once again, are you insinuating that she hasn't made a good album since Music Box? Because I think most would agree that her best music was recorded after that album. There's the remix to "Fantasy," "Honey," "Breakdown," "Heartbreaker," "It's Like That" and "Migrate" that all owe some sort of respect to the New Jack Swing movement because it combined two genres that she used in ALL those songs.
Not since the early '90s has Carey been defined as someone that's only good for ballads (which most thought until midway through her career). So what? Has she returned to the time before Daydream? Because I own all her albums, and it seems clear that she hasn't fully set herself back into that style since 1993.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
Think about it: had she not hooked up with Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis (two of New Jack Swing's premiere producers), the world never would've heard such a classic political offering like Rhythm Nation 1814,
what I said was that it was this style that initially made her a success. Without it, she wouldn't have been able to make a name for herself in dance, rock, or any other genres because she wouldn't have had the popularity to do so.
Here you are quoted as saying that the premier NJS producers gave us Rhythm Nation 1814. On that very album she dabbled in dance tracks Pleasure Priciple, and rock tracks, BlackCat. NJS did not open the door for here to try these genres. Janet was a trained dancer so that influence was there for from the beginning.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: FishBiscuit,
Posts: 5019 | Location: Illinois | Registered: June 30, 2006
Think about it: had she not hooked up with Jimmy Jam & Terry Lewis (two of New Jack Swing's premiere producers), the world never would've heard such a classic political offering like Rhythm Nation 1814,
Here you are quoted as saying that the premier NJS producers gave us Rhythm Nation 1814. On that very album she dabbled in dance tracks Pleasure Priciple, and rock tracks, BlackCat. NJS did not open the door for here to try these genres. Janet was a trained dancer so that influence was there for from the beginning.
You just don't get it, do you?
Had Janet not been a success with Control (which was heavy on NJS), then she NEVER would've been able to successfully make a record like Rhythm Nation 1814. She had 2 flop albums under her belt prior to Control. It was time to try something new, and her Control helped pioneer the NJS sound.
There's no way that RN1814 could've been the hit it was without Control as its predecessor. Period. Control gave her the success, fame, name, and popularity to make such a powerful and diverse a record as 1814. And that album was still large on NJS as well. It introduced Janet to other styles, but the NJS influence was still there. It's not as if she woke up and said, "let me abandon this sh** on my next album," because she clearly didn't. She added to it.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
BTW "what have you done for me latley" was a full on dance track on the "Control" Album. She was experimenting with other genres BEFORE Rhythm Nation 1814. PERIOD.
I'm bowing out of this discussion. R&B has been sullied by it combination with other genres which has dullited it signature sound. I'll be in my mothers vinyl collection listenting to the good stuff.
In the words of one of seanflynn's favorite directors, I bid you "Good Evening."
This message has been edited. Last edited by: FishBiscuit,
Posts: 5019 | Location: Illinois | Registered: June 30, 2006
Good evening to you too. Meanwhile, I'll be enjoying it all -- from Motown all the way through the New Jack Swing era, because I can appreciate all of it when there's quality -- and there's quality on both ends.
If anything, there's a problem with music fans that act like the only good music came out 50 years ago, and I'll bet that you listen to a lot of artists that were successful due to NJS.
It's also sad that you still fail to realize how influenced Control was by NJS. You could only come up with one track to prove that she had used dance before its follow-up. And you still ignore how the style broke Janet through.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
"What Have You Done For Me Latley" was a lead single a video was made along with "Nasty Boys," another lead single for "Control" which also had a video made.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: FishBiscuit,
Posts: 5019 | Location: Illinois | Registered: June 30, 2006
You're right. I'd lose because you'd probably deny the impact of NJS on their careers altogether, just as you have with Janet Jackson.
quote:
Originally posted by FishBiscuit: "What Have You Done For Me Latley" was a lead single a video was made along with "Nasty Boys," another lead single for "Control" which also had a video made.
I know. I edited the post.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: MrTalented,
