T White said someone should make a separate thread, so I figured "why not?". lol
First, Mary J. Blige broke ground for female artists doing this.
In retrospect, after "What's The 411?", it then became cool for female artists to have a guest spot from a rapper...others pretty much followed suit.
"In 1991, however, Sean "Puffy" Combs took Blige under his wing and began working with her on What's the 411?, her debut album. Combs had a heavy hand in What's the 411?, along with producers Dave Hall, Mark Morales, and Mark Rooney, and the stylish touches that they added to Blige's unique vocal style created a stunning album that bridged the gap between R&B and rap in a way that no female singer had before. http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll...&sql=10:jjfexq8gldse
"Mary J. Blige's debut, What's the 411? (1992), helped to legitimize the rapping-singing hybrid, as the soul singer worked her magic over backdrops rap fans instantly recognized as "hip-hop beats". http://www.popmatters.com/pm/c...gs-in-the-key-of-rap
In hindsight, Mary may not have been the "first" artist to have a rapper featured on their song. However, it was indeed Mary, that popularized the entire hybridization, thus making it big.
If Mary was the female to popularize Hip Hop/R&B collabos, then there must be a male to accompany her in that trend (and not Diddy). Can you name a male?
These are the major rap/sung records I could think off from the 80s/early-mid 90s when this trend started expanding. Any other major records?
"Walk This Way" - Aerosmith/Run DMC (1986) "I Feel For You" - Chaka Khan and a rapper (1984) "Alright" - Janet Jackson/Heavy D (1990) "Lies" - En Vogue and a rapper (1990) "My Name is Not Susan" - Whitney Houston and Moni Love (1991) "Whatta Man" - Salt n Pepa/En Vogue (1994) "Real Love" - Mary J Blige/Notorious BIG (1994) "All I Need" - Mary J Blige/Method Man (1995) "Fantasy" - Mariah Carey/ODB (1995) "Honey" - Mariah Carey/Puffy/Mase/Lox (1996)
I think the New Jack Swing sound was the foundation for the harder contemporary R&B that we hear today, but Blige and Puff Daddy really expanded on that. With those new jack swing records, it was R&B with hip hop undertones. Whereas I think Blige's music was just as much hip hop as it was R&B, hence the "Hip Hop/Soul" title. I mean "You're All I Need" was basically a duet (and even won a Grammy for R&B Duo), not just a rap verse in the middle of an R&B song.
Originally posted by T White: These are the major rap/sung records I could think off from the 80s/early-mid 90s when this trend started expanding. Any other major records?
"Walk This Way" - Aerosmith/Run DMC (1986) "I Feel For You" - Chaka Khan and a rapper (1984) "Alright" - Janet Jackson/Heavy D (1990) "Lies" - En Vogue and a rapper (1990) "My Name is Not Susan" - Whitney Houston and Moni Love (1991) "Whatta Man" - Salt n Pepa/En Vogue (1994) "Real Love" - Mary J Blige/Notorious BIG (1994) "All I Need" - Mary J Blige/Method Man (1995) "Fantasy" - Mariah Carey/ODB (1995) "Honey" - Mariah Carey/Puffy/Mase/Lox (1996)
I think the New Jack Swing sound was the foundation for the harder contemporary R&B that we hear today, but Blige and Puff Daddy really expanded on that. With those new jack swing records, it was R&B with hip hop undertones. Whereas I think Blige's music was just as much hip hop as it was R&B, hence the "Hip Hop/Soul" title. I mean "You're All I Need" was basically a duet (and even won a Grammy for R&B Duo), not just a rap verse in the middle of an R&B song.
Don't forget about "Friends" (1989) - Jody Watley f/Rakim
Well "Fantasy" was by far the biggest hit of that time, so that is what helped pushed it mainstream. Mariah's fanbase was wide and reached suburban white homes too. After Mariah did it, you had other pop singers following such as JLO.
"Fantasy" was probably the biggest hit at the time, and it probably started a movement with pop singers collaborating with rap artists in later years, but no way did it push it to mainstream. It was already mainstream before Mariah did it. There were several collabos prior to the "Fantasy" Remix that were successful on the Hot 100. All Mariah did was followed a trend that was already popular at that time. As I recalled, the original was big.
If anything, I think Aerosmith and Run DMC brought rap/sung collabos to the mainstream. The remix was much bigger than the original, peaking at #4 on the Hot 100 while the original only peaked at #10.
Originally posted by Kenny: Well "Fantasy" was by far the biggest hit of that time, so that is what helped pushed it mainstream. Mariah's fanbase was wide and reached suburban white homes too. After Mariah did it, you had other pop singers following such as JLO.
The original version (the one without ODB) was huge, yes. But you're talking about the remix, which is what the discussion revolves around.
While "Fantasy" was #1 (the original version), it is still not safe to assume that the remix achieved the same success, seeing as how Billboard did not separate remixes from the original. Whatever amount of airplay the remix of "Fantasy" received was factored into the sales and airplay of the original. So what exactly did Mariah bring into the mainstream?
And keep in mind that the "Fantasy" remix was released in 1995...J. Lo's collaborations didn't start until around 01-02, which is when the pop/hip hop collaboration really gained prominence. That's about seven years later.
If Mariah truly did bring the collabo into the mainstream, there definitely would've been artists doing it shortly after she did it; not six/seven years later.
A more correct assertion would be that Mariah was ONE of the pioneers of a pop star collaborationg with a rapper; however, she surely didn't bring the collaboration into the mainstream, and she surely didn't popularize it.
Originally posted by T White: These are the major rap/sung records I could think off from the 80s/early-mid 90s when this trend started expanding. Any other major records?
"Walk This Way" - Aerosmith/Run DMC (1986) "I Feel For You" - Chaka Khan and a rapper (1984) "Alright" - Janet Jackson/Heavy D (1990) "Lies" - En Vogue and a rapper (1990) "My Name is Not Susan" - Whitney Houston and Moni Love (1991) "Whatta Man" - Salt n Pepa/En Vogue (1994) "Real Love" - Mary J Blige/Notorious BIG (1994) "All I Need" - Mary J Blige/Method Man (1995) "Fantasy" - Mariah Carey/ODB (1995) "Honey" - Mariah Carey/Puffy/Mase/Lox (1996)
I think the New Jack Swing sound was the foundation for the harder contemporary R&B that we hear today, but Blige and Puff Daddy really expanded on that. With those new jack swing records, it was R&B with hip hop undertones. Whereas I think Blige's music was just as much hip hop as it was R&B, hence the "Hip Hop/Soul" title. I mean "You're All I Need" was basically a duet (and even won a Grammy for R&B Duo), not just a rap verse in the middle of an R&B song.
To me, that's the major difference that separates New Jack Swing (an album like "Control") from Hip-Hop/Soul ("What's the 411?").
This is a mistake that many people make when talking about "Fantasy" being huge. The original was huge. The original, rapper-less version was on the album, was played on MTV and Top 40 radio. The remix was played on urban stations and BET. That audience was already very familiar with a rap verse. So it really didn't have much effect on the mainstream. I recall Carey herself said that she included the remix on her #1s album because the majority of her fanbase didn't really know that remix existed. To me, that remix was huge for HER career, but was just another rap/sung record of the 90s during hip hop's increasing influence on pop culture.
I've noticed quite a few people mention that the "Fantasy" remix popularized rap/sung collaborations, and I never agreed with it.
I'm a Mariah fan and won't take anything away from her, but I would never understand why some people credit her for the rap/sung trend. The rap/sung trend became popular in the early 90s with the whole New Jack Swing/Hip Hop soul movements.
Singers collaborating with Rap artists became increasingly popular circa 93 to 95. It was the "in thing" at the time. Mariah just followed a trend; she didn't popularize it.
In the context that Mariah advocates are using (POP stars collaborating with rappers), I think the Nsync track feat. Nelly made it cool for pop artists to get a guest spot from a rapper...which I why I think the pop/hip hop collaboration really didn't come to prominence until around '02, seven years after the "Fantasy" remix.
After the "Girlfriend" remix, not only were pop stars getting more verses from hip hop artists, but they were also going after producers like The Neptunes and Timbaland.
The Backstreet Boys, Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, etc either had rappers or hip hop producers or both on their singles from that point forward.
Later came Nelly Furtado, Madonna, Justin's solo albums, and Gwen's solo albums.
They all used the same or similar sounds from both VA producers.
Typically, when an artist popularizes something, it usually becomes a trend from that point on.
After Mary, there was Aaliyah, Brandy, Monica, SWV, Total, etc.
And if people want to use the argument for "pop" artists...like I said, I think Nsync did that, moreso than Mariah.
Mariah was someone considered an R&B artist, that became huge, thus went pop. After the "Fantasy" remix, I didn't see R&B artists or R&B artists that later went pop doing something that they weren't already doing.
I actually thought about the "Girlfriend" remix when I posted in the other thread. You did bring up a good point, Be. N*Sync never receive any credit for it, so that makes me think the whole Pop/Hip Hop clash thing isn't that significant to begin with.
I don't think you can give Nsync credit for the pop/hip-hop collaboration. There were others before them...Jennifer Lopez, Eve/Gwen Stefani, Mariah's numerous collaborations, Nelly Furtado appeared in the remix for Get Your Freak On...
FYC-Album of the Year: Maxwell's BLACKsummers'night
That's true, but even then, all of those collabos came out circa 2001. That's when it became big for Pop stars to collaborate with Rap stars. That's six or seven years after the "Fantasy" remix was released, which wasn't as popular as the original at all. So who really popularized it? It's really hard to say.
This message has been edited. Last edited by: musicluva123,
The Rap/Sung Collaboration was at it's peak during 2001-2004! You had Usher,Lil Jon,Ludacris,Jay-Z,Beyonce,Nelly, KellyRowland,Ja Rule,Ashanti,Jennifer Lopez,and Outkast. I remember that Era like it was yesterday!
Originally posted by jss0058: I don't think you can give Nsync credit for the pop/hip-hop collaboration. There were others before them...Jennifer Lopez, Eve/Gwen Stefani, Mariah's numerous collaborations, Nelly Furtado appeared in the remix for Get Your Freak On...
Regardless, I think the entire point is that you can't really say that the "Fantasy" remix popularized the pop/hip hop collaboration, seeing as how the collaboration really didn't gain prominence until '01-'02...well after the "Fantasy" remix was released.
Whoever actually did make it big is really anyone's guess at this point. But it definitely was not Mariah.
